Developer Forum

wo weeks ago, I did some file copy tests on a brand new Dell Inspiron 1545
laptop, set up for dual-booting Windows 7 Home Premium and Mandriva 2010.1.
Windows performed as expected: like crap.

Luckily, setting up Mandriva was a breeze, and the owner has been a happy
Linux user since, not feeling the the need to boot into Windows at all.

Until today, that is, when I got a phone call if I could help out with
a "computer problem". It turned out that the owner had finally fired up W7
to check it out, but couldn't get WiFi working. I did set up wireless
networking in Linux (perhaps 5 minutes of work), but not in Windows -- as I
don't "do Windows" as a rule.

After being offered a free beer for my trouble, I decided to go over and
help out nevertheless. I had already set up the wireless under Linux,
complete with MAC access control and WEP encryption (yeah, I know WEP isn't
really secure, but these people live in a sort of remote cottage, with
no-one else nearby, so the risk is minimal). So how hard can it be?

OK, fire up W7 -> Control Center ... now, let's see ...
http://www.linetec.nl/linux/w7-wififun01.png
Ah, yes "Networking & Internet -> Connect to the Internet"
http://www.linetec.nl/linux/w7-wififun02.png
"How do you want to connect to the Internet?" Yup: Wireless. So far, so
good. Click ...

http://www.linetec.nl/linux/w7-wififun03.png
Ah, there it is, coming in strong. Click ...

http://www.linetec.nl/linux/w7-wififun04.png
Huh? "Connect Automatically"?? But it has WEP encryption -- it even says so
in the previous window! So you /can't/ connect automatically! Ah well ...
it's dumbass Windows, after all. And as I can't find any other options, I
click the Connect button ...

http://www.linetec.nl/linux/w7-wififun05.png
And sure enough: "No connection can be established ..." Duh. OK, "Solve
Problems":

http://www.linetec.nl/linux/w7-wififun06.png
"Change the wireless network security settings" Okidoki. But how? Ah,
there's a link at the bottom ... Click ...

http://www.linetec.nl/linux/w7-wififun07.png
Ho hum ... "You have no connection with online Help ..." This stupidity is
getting on my nerves. Anyway, "Setting up an encryption key for a wireless
network" is what I want, so I should be in the right place ... security
blah blah ... encryption key blah blah ... ah: "Click here to open 'Setting
up a network'" ... Click ...

http://www.linetec.nl/linux/w7-wififun08.png
"Select the wireless router to configure ... it may take up to 90 seconds
for non-configured devices to appear in the network."
Huh? 90 seconds? It was more link 3 seconds in Linux. Ah well, what's a
minute-and-a-half more? Tick tock tick tock ...
Tick
Tock
...
Tick
Tock

http://www.linetec.nl/linux/w7-wififun09.png
Well, it's been quite a bit more than 90 seconds -- over 5 minutes in fact,
and nothing seems to be happening. So I ask for another beer and click
Cancel. This looks like it'll be a normal, long night with Windows.
I look over the Help screen again, and on a hunch, I click "Encryption
methods for wireless networks", scroll down, and lo and behold, there's a
step-by-step manual for setting up a WEP-encrypted connection. Now we're
finally cooking with charcoal!

http://www.linetec.nl/linux/w7-wififun10.png
"Click here to open the Networking Center" ...

http://www.linetec.nl/linux/w7-wififun11.png
Interesting. Yet another screen for setting up network connections. OK, now
what does

Hmm ... I may have found something after all...

...

... and this is probably the place where things went wrong on my part: what
the window suggests is that the access point has been added, and the setup
is finally complete with an inviting Close button and all -- but in reality,
I was supposed to click "Change connection settings", and choose the correct
type of WEP. (I can't check it now, as it's a bit late.)

This is a very good example how totally incompetent user interface design
can turn something easy into an almost impossible task. Why not offer a
right-click option with the systray icon to set up WiFi? And if WEP may be
insecure, why not have a one-click "Yes, I want to use WEP after all"
button, after which you can enter /all/ WEP details (key and mode) in one
window? What's with the maze of options, some of which work, some of which
don't?

Sure, I'm to blame too, for not exactly following the Help explanation --
but note that some stuff really doesn't work, e.g. the Network Setup Wizard.

So far, I find Windows 7 the most inconsistent, confusing and ugly version
of Windows I've come across. So I stick with my conclusion: Microsoft can't
write software worth a damn.

Richard Rasker
--
http://www.yqcomputer.com/

And 'as expected' - you take a simple task that many dozens of millions of
people are able to accomplish with ease - and you find a way to *** it up.

Richard Rasker < XXXX@XXXXX.COM > wrote in



You should find another *** ing career because it seems every time you
touch a Windows computer things turn to shit real fast. Some folks
shouldn't be allowed near technology. You seem to be a classic case.
Another *** chop in action.

You have trouble, *** , but hundreds of millions of others do not. Now you
claim to be so smart, but why are you always having problems where others do
not? Perhaps you should read the book.

Well, *** , it is indeed a shame that they didn't anticipate that you would
leap to conclusions. Maybe you should try another brand of software.
Windows seems too confusing for you.

As someone who uses both Windows 7 and Ubuntu 10.04, why did you do
that? Setting up wireless on W7 is just as easy and almost identical to
Linux. Click the Wireless icon in the systray, choose the network you
want to connect to and click on "Connect". Enter the correct password,
and that's it. Just like Ubuntu in fact.....

ordon wrote:


Perhaps you didn't get the point of my original rant.

Yes, I got to the systray wireless list quite easily -- see
http://www.linetec.nl/linux/w7-wififun03.png

As you can see, Microsoft's tool found a strong signal, and correctly
identified the encryption type (WEP). So far, so good.

But after that, things started to go wrong. At first, when clicking the
network I wanted to connect to, Windows is merely acting rather stupid:
http://www.linetec.nl/linux/w7-wififun04.png

It offers to "Connect automatically", which of course is impossible without
an encrytion key. And yes, when I clicked the "Connect" button, I expected
Windows to simply ask for the key and perhaps some other WEP settings. But
it didn't: http://www.linetec.nl/linux/w7-wififun05.png
It simply told me in typical Microsoft style that "No connection could be
established", and then sent me off into the woods with this "Solve
Problems" link.
And instead of solving my problem, I got a lecture about how insecure WEP
is, and that I shouldn't use it, and that I should use WPA instead(*), plus
yet another link to some general instructions on how to change security
settings etcetera: http://www.linetec.nl/linux/w7-wififun06.png

*: Which I couldn't, since these people's access point only supports WEP.
Which isn't much of a problem, since their nearest neighbour lives almost
half a mile away.

Only after painstakingly perusing all available Help on this matter and
*exactly* following the rather convoluted instructions for setting up WEP,
stumbling upon a broken Wizard --
http://www.linetec.nl/linux/w7-wififun08.png -- and some totally
counter-intuitive setup screens in the process, does one manage to get a
working WEP-encrypted connection.

The sad thing is that it's probably as easy as you tell me when dealing with
WPA instead of WEP. And that's exactly what's wrong with
Microsoft's "software design": it's a totally inconsistent mess. Two
different types of network encryption? Then leave it to Microsoft to create
two radically different ways to set up a connection, even if the actual
user actions involved are completely identical (i.e. choose SSID & enter
key).
I understand that they want to discourage the use of WEP (and rightly so),
but creating such a horrible setup procedure this is not the right way to
go about it; it only serves to piss people off. A simple extra message
along the lines of "NOTE: WEP is very insecure, and you should use WPA if
possible. Do you really want to use WEP? [Y/N]" should suffice.

But virtually every time I try to do something in Windows, I run into these
issues: broken system tools, ridiculously complicated procedures, and
generally poor performance. The Wintrolls may shout all they want about
those "millions of people"(**) who apparently don't have these problems,
but from what I see around me, those people experience the exact same
issues I do, but they don't /see/ these things as problems; after years of
having to cope with Windows, they think it's how computers are supposed to
act. So they try again, or ask the neighbour's kid to help, etcetera. All
this costs huge amount of time and money, but I guess that Windows users
have more of both (and are less attached to it) than Linux users.

**: Interesting: "Windows 7" networking problems produces no less than 138
million hits in Google. And "Windows 7" WEP problem still comes up with
over 12 million hits. "No problems

Exactly - almost IDENTICAL to the way it's done in Windows 7.



As I posted - no need to use the WINDOWS "control centre" at all. And
yes I'm very well aware that Ubuntu doesn't have the equivalent.


No I'm not.

It's JUST as easy - like I originally posted.

Unless the encryption method is WEP -- and then it's almost impossible for
mere mortals to establish a connection in Windows.


Richard Rasker
--
http://www.yqcomputer.com/

Richard Rasker < XXXX@XXXXX.COM > writes:





We did.

You haven't got a clue

once more you decided to tinker with an OS you clearly know nothing
about, you then purposely did not follow the instructions and then broke
your networking. Similarly if you put a rabid monkey in a china shop,
things will get broken.

Meanwhile shit happens in linux too :-

http://www.yqcomputer.com/ +wireless+not+working

There will be always be trouble when people start doing things they are
specifically warned against : and you of course, have a track record of
breaking things.

*plonk*

Terry Porter < XXXX@XXXXX.COM > writes:



Not by many COLA "advocates". Many seemed unaware of WEP issues a while
back. Gregory still swears by it ...



So does Windows for most people . Obviously someone like Rasker going
out of his way can hose it. As can people with Linux when they edit
their interfaces file as root.

I mean seriously, are you really such a thick moron that you think
Windows networking doesnt work? All those millions of home users and
dedicated install CDs from the ISPs and you and Rasker claim it doesnt
work? You're an idiot Porter. And you stand out. And in COLA that IS an
achievement.

Clearly you are not the person people call when they have trouble with
their Windows comptuer or you would not go around saying such silly
things. Hundreds of millions do, indeed, have all kinds of problems
with Windows. Believe it or not.


--
-| Bob Hauck (Brother Nail Gun of The Short Path)
-| http://www.yqcomputer.com/

*plonk* - is that the sound your *** *** mother made the day she shat you
out into the toilet?

that dirty *** is unclean too because if she had bothered to wipe after
she shat you into the toilet a stupid fscking lowlife turd like you wouldn't
be around to foul up things with your *** stench.