64-Bit Compiler Would Help Sell More 32-Bit Compilers

64-Bit Compiler Would Help Sell More 32-Bit Compilers

Post by Mike Vanc » Tue, 08 Feb 2005 01:12:38


There are those that are convinced that Delphi is a dead-end technology.
Borland has worked hard to cultivate this reputation by refusing to
optimize their current 32-bit compiler technology, and trying to move
everything to the DotNet IL. That is forcing a movement over to C++.
If Borland were to produce a 64-bit compiler, or at least announce they
were working on one, that would give Delphi a better reputation and
convince the people sitting on a fence to jump over to the Delphi side.
The 64-bit compiler would not even have to be of the highest quality at
first; just something that works. Just throw it in with the D2005
suite. All this would end up increasing the Delphi32 sales, since
persons would create new projects with D32, knowing it had a future
other than just IL.

As long as Delphi.NET and Delphi32 are sold in one combined package
Borland is never going to understand where their true sales base comes
from. Delphi has always been the one true competitor to C++. Borland
fails to grasp that. Everything that Danny Thorpe (I like him, really!)
and the Borland devs have been doing the last few years has been to push
the Delphi users into the arms of C# and C++/CLI. I am not exagerating.
Their marketing has always been screwy, but now things are getting
ultra-weird.

Don't believe me? Tell me a third-party DotNet component developer that
is writing their components in Delphi.NET instead of C#. All the
serious ones are writing them in C#.

Borland has a great market with the Delphi users. Keep them 100% Delphi
by having Managed Delphi that interacts with DotNet ala C++/CLI.

The Borland guys are chasing the Java-type business database
applications segment so hard, they cannot see straight.
 
 
 

64-Bit Compiler Would Help Sell More 32-Bit Compilers

Post by Alexander » Tue, 08 Feb 2005 01:21:28

[..] And here comes another one ...


LOL what a stupid argument. 64 is coming because of apps working faster and
more effective (not all of course).
If the compiler is not of high quality, wth shouldn't you simply continue
using the 32 compiler?


Oh yes, their marketing was so worse that they've build up a huge customer
base on Delphi, thousands and thousands of component developers and much
more.. (if you find some sarcasm here, you're right!).


Maybe you should think before writing er? The big advantage of .NET is to be
able to use different languages together, by that you can write your
assemblies in C# and use them from Delphi.NET. Why they're writing their
components in C#? Because C# is some kind of a "system-language" of .NET and
most .NET developers of course understand C# fairly better than Delphi.


Wtf? You have Delphi.NET which is fairly better than this Managed C++ ***
(which is just there to be "backwards" compatible to the old c++ code ..
Delphi.NET *is* compatible to the old Delphi32 Code but yet is a "real" .NET
language), so what the heck are you talking of here?


Did you miss Delphi 2005?

Alex

 
 
 

64-Bit Compiler Would Help Sell More 32-Bit Compilers

Post by Alexander » Tue, 08 Feb 2005 01:23:39

oh and btw... Xp64 is still in beta anyway... and how long will it take
until everyone of your customers are able to use 64bit and does it really
make sense to use 64bit for your app, thinking of Delphi app to be more
business orientated anyway... just my additional $.02

Alex
 
 
 

64-Bit Compiler Would Help Sell More 32-Bit Compilers

Post by Will DeWit » Tue, 08 Feb 2005 01:52:14


Beta until April of this year, then it's retail. It's already a free
download from Microsoft's website (as is Windows Server 2003 for x64).


Probably quite a while for *every* *one* of them to switch, sure, but
it won't take much time at all for you to get a reasonably sized
audience that would benefit from it. Intel is moving all of their
desktop processors towards supporting EM64T in April (to coincide with
Microsoft releasing Windows XP Professional for x64).


Intel has said you can expect an average 10% increase in performance
just by recompiling for x64. Tweak your code using BASM to take
advantage of some of the more esoteric features and you're probably
looking at a 25+% boost.

Will

--
Want native support in Delphi for AMD64/EM64T? Vote here--

http://www.yqcomputer.com/
 
 
 

64-Bit Compiler Would Help Sell More 32-Bit Compilers

Post by Alexander » Tue, 08 Feb 2005 02:09:57

> Intel has said you can expect an average 10% increase in performance

Sorry, but that just sounds quite silly from Intel then. Take e.g. a simple
word processing app.. you really think there'd be a speedup of 10% just by
compilling it for 64bit? _never_ ;-)

Alex
 
 
 

64-Bit Compiler Would Help Sell More 32-Bit Compilers

Post by Will DeWit » Tue, 08 Feb 2005 02:45:39


That's why I (and actually, Intel) qualified it with "an average". And
actually, yes, despite all the guffaws and chuckles from the peanut
gallery, I *would* expect a word processor to be faster. Take Microsoft
Word for example-- as you type it's constantly doing tasks in the
background: spellchecking, grammer checking, pattern matching (does
what you're typing look like: an address, a date, a time, a nickname,
an acronym, etc), etc) and so forth. I'd be /very/ surprised if *none*
of those tasks benefitted from x64 on some level.

Will

--
Want native support in Delphi for AMD64/EM64T? Vote here--

http://www.yqcomputer.com/
 
 
 

64-Bit Compiler Would Help Sell More 32-Bit Compilers

Post by Jim Coope » Tue, 08 Feb 2005 03:23:24


> Tell me a third-party DotNet component developer that

Red herring :-) That's gonna happen no matter whether there is a D64 or
not.

Cheers,
Jim Cooper

__________________________________________

Jim Cooper XXXX@XXXXX.COM
Tabdee Ltd http://www.yqcomputer.com/

TurboSync - Connecting Delphi to your Palm
__________________________________________
 
 
 

64-Bit Compiler Would Help Sell More 32-Bit Compilers

Post by Dennis Lan » Tue, 08 Feb 2005 03:24:46


being
think

Congrats. You have entirely grokked the 64-bit Lobby. Make sure you add
your vote here:

http://www.yqcomputer.com/

-- d
---------------------------------------------------
Need to see what's happening?
Check out the Delphi Community Blog Aggregator
http://www.yqcomputer.com/
 
 
 

64-Bit Compiler Would Help Sell More 32-Bit Compilers

Post by James K Sm » Tue, 08 Feb 2005 03:41:15

And why would you care with a user-bound app? But of course these types of
apps are not what 64 bit can make an interesting contribution to. Multimedia
servers, database servers, web servers, encryption, closed systems, etc. I
think could all benefit from 64 bit technology.

Does anyone here remember the objections to 32 bit because 16 bit was
plenty? Part of what's exciting about programming is the advance of
technology because it provides you with more opportunities to think up new
ideas, and provide better solutions to complex problems.

It's too bad this concern about where Borland best spends its resources has
split people into two camps. I think the bottom line is we need both .net
and 64 bit.

Delphi has always been a unique and extremely productive alternative to
whatever Microsoft was trying to get us to use, but if it ends up just being
another .net language, I don't see that future looking too bright. You think
organizations or Microsoft really give a *** about .net being
multi-language outside of C# and VB? I really think D.net needs a 64 bit D
to maintain its legitimacy as a viable alternative to Microsoft.



simple
 
 
 

64-Bit Compiler Would Help Sell More 32-Bit Compilers

Post by Nick Hodge » Tue, 08 Feb 2005 04:07:33


This is nonsense.

--
Nick Hodges -- TeamB
Lemanix Corporation -- http://www.yqcomputer.com/
Read my Blog -- http://www.yqcomputer.com/
 
 
 

64-Bit Compiler Would Help Sell More 32-Bit Compilers

Post by Will DeWit » Tue, 08 Feb 2005 04:25:14


Is it? There's been very little movement towards optimizing the Delphi
compiler. It still emits Pentium-classic era code. It doesn't utilize
MMX, SSE or SSE2. And no, I'm not suggesting the Win32 compiler should
break compatibility with older processors-- this is where a new
"processor architecture" compiler directive would fit nicely.

As far as the issue of DotNet IL, I'll agree that different people will
see that in different ways.

Will

--
Want native support in Delphi for AMD64/EM64T? Vote here--

http://www.yqcomputer.com/
 
 
 

64-Bit Compiler Would Help Sell More 32-Bit Compilers

Post by Edwin La » Tue, 08 Feb 2005 05:26:05

How many deployed machines are there now with 64bits enabled CPU ?
I would assume you need one to run a 64bits compiled application, right ?

There has to be a viable level of customer and deployed based before such
huge undertaking could be done to be profitable and that means that apart
from OS, the majority of the computers around would need to be 64bits
enabled.

Delphi 1 supported 16 bits compiles and at that time, the majority of the
deployed machines were running on 32bits enabled CPUs and there was
no real pain upgrading to Delphi 2 which was their first inroad to the
32bits
development.

Edwin
 
 
 

64-Bit Compiler Would Help Sell More 32-Bit Compilers

Post by Larry Drew » Tue, 08 Feb 2005 08:19:02

"Will DeWitt Jr." < XXXX@XXXXX.COM > wrote in


Since Borland technical people do not appear to be stupid, I assume they
are aware of the possibilities of producing a compiler that generates more
optimized code. Since they have not, I infer that they have more valuable
things to spend their time on. Certainly I would prefer they spend their
time on generics, Net 2 ehnhancements, etc. When I try to sell my services
as a software developer, functional capabilities outsell raw performance
every time. Your situation may be different.
 
 
 

64-Bit Compiler Would Help Sell More 32-Bit Compilers

Post by Dennis Lan » Tue, 08 Feb 2005 08:19:18


"Borland knows best"

-- d
---------------------------------------------------
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Check out the Delphi Community Blog Aggregator
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64-Bit Compiler Would Help Sell More 32-Bit Compilers

Post by Larry Drew » Tue, 08 Feb 2005 08:30:09

"Dennis Landi" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM > wrote in



Since Borland has survived 20+ years in an extremely competitive business,
they apparently know better than you, unless you can put forward a similar
personal experience.