Just Venting and a Question

Just Venting and a Question

Post by lumpierbri » Fri, 16 Apr 2004 06:42:56

I'm curious as to why some questions posted here get results and solutions,
while others are answered in a seemingly foreign language and I can't begin to
comprehend or understand the answers that are given. Is there a place to learn
this foreign language to be able to better communicate questions, as to derive
the solution that the poster is attempting to receive? If so, where please?

I have a program that I'm trying to track animal genetic upline, example:

AnimalID is the Animal Name, there in the same table is Sire (father) and Dam
(mother).My problem is I can get the Sire and Dam for the initial animal, but I
can't get the additional Dam's and Sire's for the initial father and mother. Is
it a query that I'm looking to use or code to successfully accomplish this

Thank you,


Just Venting and a Question

Post by Pavel Roma » Fri, 16 Apr 2004 07:27:06

I think that the answer to your particular question is closely related
to the first (venting) part.

There is no way one can suggest a working solution to a question like
you asked without knowing how your database is set up. We need to be
able to read table names you use and field names you have, and know whet
primary keys are, and what related tables there are. This enables us to
follow the logic of the database and figure out how to get the
additional Dam's and Sire's for the initial father and mother.
Please remember - we have no information about your database and,
therefore, can not provide advice until we see this information.

Best regards,


Just Venting and a Question

Post by Sala » Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:41:15

I may have replied in the past to you and mentioned you should go to
google and look around there. Goto http://www.yqcomputer.com/ and select
AdvancedSearch. In the Words To Search enter
and for the groups to search enter

Anyway, here is just ONE response from the google search. There are 84
threads on just the word Geneology to review. Then start looking for
Dam and Sire and it should have even more results.

Google article:
The human relationships that you want to trace will define
the data structure you need.

For a simple example, see:
Self Joins: tables that look themselves up (Pedigrees example)
http://www.yqcomputer.com/ ~abrowne/ser-06.html

That article handles biological parents only, not step parents.
For those, you would need a lookup table that defines the
relationship types, and a link table between 2 copies of your
Person database that links the 2 people by a defined relationship

For more complex tree tracing, see Joe Celko's article:
A Look at SQL Trees at:

Just Venting and a Question

Post by lumpierbri » Fri, 16 Apr 2004 11:34:39

The .au link I couldn't get to come up to see the relationship for Geneology.


Just Venting and a Question

Post by lumpierbri » Fri, 16 Apr 2004 11:39:18

Pavel, Thank you;

Table Name: tblAnimals
fields: AnimalID - Primary Key 100 characters, usually name of animal and

Sire - name of father of this animal
Dam - name of mother of this animal

Sire1a - name of father of Sire 1
Dam1a - name of the mother of the Sire 1

Sire1b - name of Sire for Dam 1
Dam1b - name of Dam for Dam 1

Sire 2a - name of Sire of Sire 1a
Dam2a - name of Dam of Sire 1a

Sire2b - name of Sire of Sire 1b
Dam2b - name of Dam of Sire 1b

etc etc, all the way through five generations. All form fields are named, but

Just Venting and a Question

Post by Matthew Su » Fri, 16 Apr 2004 12:16:31

If you've been learning Access by "just picking it up", then raw SQL,
VBA code, and database theory (normalization, keys, relations) can
absolutely seem like a foreign language.

The Google Groups archives are chock full of recommendations for
tutorial and reference books for people with all sorts of backgrounds.

I *guarantee* you that a decent book will more than pay for itself.

Also: learn to use the Google Groups archives if you haven't already.
They're a treasure trove of information.

Access is so user-friendly that just about anyone who's not afraid to
turn on a computer can learn to use it. Learning to use it *well*,
however, takes an investment of time. Invest that time to study it
more formally, and, IMHO, you'll be thankful that you did.

Good luck!


On 14 Apr 2004 21:42:56 GMT, XXXX@XXXXX.COM (Lumpierbritches)

Just Venting and a Question

Post by Sala » Fri, 16 Apr 2004 22:09:25

Did you just stop at the two links I listed or did you go to google as I

Just Venting and a Question

Post by Pavel Roma » Sat, 17 Apr 2004 01:41:41

With this information it is much easier to suggest a solution.
The database is not normalized properly. This means that information is
not stored in a way that makes it easy to find and retrieve the
information. It may let you enter parents names incorrectly, and it will
not let you store additional information for parents at all.
This design also limits your ability to go back in the tree any deeper
than the number of fields for parents you have put in the table (you
shose 5 levels, but it doesn't have to be).
The solution is simple. Change the table to contain only these columns:

AnimalID (Autonumber)
AnimalName (Text)
SireID (FK, Number)
DamID (FK, Number)
isFemale (Yes/No)
Picture (Hyperlink)
Other ...

Sire and Dam are AnimalIDs of the parents stored in the same table. In a
table like this you can build a tree as deep as you want.
You can base the form on a query, which you build in query designer. You
will need to link tblAnimals to itself twice - tblAnimals_1 you link
SirID to AnimalID, tblAnimals_2 you link DamID to AnimalID. You can now
set up your form so that Sir and Dam are chosen from drop lists, as
opposed to typing them in, and you can set up a standard form where you
enter animal information. This will let you reduce data entry in cases
when you have the same parents for different animals.

Hope this helps,

Just Venting and a Question

Post by Joan Wil » Sat, 17 Apr 2004 02:01:21

http://www.yqcomputer.com/ ~allenbrowne/ser-06.html

Joan Wild
Microsoft Access MVP

Just Venting and a Question

Post by joe.celk » Wed, 21 Apr 2004 08:42:09

>> For more complex tree tracing, see Joe Celko's article: .. <<

Actually, I would rather that you buy my new book on Amazon.com on
trees & Hierarchies in SQL, so I can get royalities :)

Just Venting and a Question

Post by jafortu » Wed, 21 Apr 2004 19:41:06

XXXX@XXXXX.COM (Lumpierbritches) wrote in message news:< XXXX@XXXXX.COM >...

Here are some other possibilities you may or may not have considered:

Company A asks me to quote a job. Afterwards, they decide to hire
someone else to do it. I soon notice a posting to
comp.databases.ms-access from Programmer B asking how to do what
Company A wanted. I also happen to know that the first name of
Programmer B matches the first name of a programmer that Company A
knows about. I'm not likely to answer that post even though I know
the answer having just thought about the problem enough to quote it.
I take solace in the fact that even at half my rate Company A is going
to end up shelling out higher bucks and not getting as good of a

I see a posting from a noobie but I can't tell if they're just trying
to learn how to program Access or if they're doing a homework
assignment for their beginning Access class. I tend to err on the
side of helping them. In this case I'll leave a little bit more for
them to do in case I'm wrong.

Some postings are just incomprehensible even to Access developers. If
I have to do too much guessing about their problem it's not worth the
hassle. If they attempted to explain clearly what they are trying to
do I am much more likely to attempt a solution.

I like answering "TV problems" (i.e., ones that can be solved in 30
minutes ;-)). If the problem is going to require a massive amount of
time to solve then maybe they should consider hiring a professional.

It's obvious from the poster's question that they have no chance of
finishing what they are starting. I'll probably answer the question
but I'm left shaking my head. I saw an Access app today that was a
complete mess. Besides things like Command1_Click(), the code
wouldn't even compile and they were running the database anyway!

Sometimes I see a post and think, "Jones, who also reads this NG, is
much better than I am with that subject and will probably answer it."

If it looks like they are not really trying to solve a problem they
personally encountered I start questioning their motive for the post.
If the problem looks interesting enough I might give it a try anyway.

Sometimes I realize that answering a post will cause me to opine about
particular software companies or their software. Flame wars are
usually a huge waste of time. I try not to say things that will bring
out extollers or bashers.

When I was first learning Access I received a considerable amount of
help from this newsgroup so I try to answer questions from time to
time when I am able as a way of saying "thanks" and to keep sharp. I
try to choose topics that I have some knowledge of so that limits how
many posts I attempt to answer :-). Be sure to realize that, in
general, answering posts is a volunteer effort. The Catch 22 for the
original poster is that you have to know enough of the "foreign
language" of Access before you can communicate what new language
skills you need.

Hope this helps,
James A. Fortune

Just Venting and a Question

Post by Trevor Bes » Thu, 22 Apr 2004 08:04:15

Delete your cookies first :-)

http://www.yqcomputer.com/ ,17863,528427,00.html

Error reading sig - A)bort R)etry I)nfluence with large hammer