Developer Forum

Please, I don't want to start a discussion about marketing because I'm
really tired, it's only a thought.

There is coming a new tool every two days on the market (see the link
below) and it's all about marketing only. Without marketing and publicity
will be "every" product out of the market and developers retired. I hope
there will be provided SV's marketing campaign for C6 (not only plans!)
because it's the excellent tool comparing to others. But without marketing,
trials, price list, competitive upgrades,...

You know, no jobs, no projects, no money, programming for food OR a better
solution is to change the product and environment :-(


Proc-Blaster - Code Generator for ASP, SQL, VB.NET, C#, ASP.NET, SQL Server,
Delphi, PHP
http://www.yqcomputer.com/


And 2nd please, I don't want to start a discussion about advantages of
Clarion or Proc-Blaster, WinDev, Delphi, CodeCharge,... because I know, but
there are people without any idea what is Clarion and buy other tools. So
again, marketing, marketing, marketing. I would rather prepare a small
marketing campaign or trials as a new "XYZ" template.


Best Regards!

This is a very nice tool.... and is extremely nice when you want to create
stored procedures for I/O. It creates the sp as well as the calling code
for various platforms.

Glenn

I will toss out two thoughts in this area. One, how stable will a 'new'
environment be in the first few releases? And second, how easy will the
development language be to work with? For all of our complaining about
Clarion it is a mature environment, the most recent versions can work with
data files from the earliest versions. Additionally I think the Clarion
language is a very straightforward and understandable language and
relatively easy to work with. While I do look at other environments I have
never yet found anything I am as comfortable with as I am with Clarion. I
hope it continues to develop.



marketing,
Server,
but

Hi Glen,

Which product are you referring to?

Hi Alfredo,

What is your point?, that SV better come out with some marketing?



marketing,
Server,
but

Jan,

my point is that I'm really tired when I have to always persuade potential
customers about development in Clarion. They look on SV website and tell me:
No, thanks! Their questions are e.g.
Why they have not a price list there?
Why the distributor's link doesn't function?
Where is a trial version for our testing?
Why there isn't a distributor in our country?
...
And the last but not least: "When Clarion is so superior why they haven't
trial or price list?" It's very suspicious.

Nobody is interested in Clarion when I speak about the excellent
possibilities and functionality, development speed or maintenance,
templates, or... irrespective of a test application I create quickly and
efficiently and free of charge for them. They say, it's nice but we need the
application for xyz application server (OAS) or we need integration with our
current Access solution, so you have to do it in Access, when you want the
project.

They need marketing and publicity and no a template for PDF or ASP
generation or something similar. And I know what I'm speaking about because
have been working with Clarion since '89 and have many years of "Clarion
missionary" experience (in Czech, Nederland, UK, Ireland, Germany...).

I feel sorry for dump policy there on Florida because it seems to me there
are still less and less opportunities for Clarion. I have been in touch with
some big players - Clarion customers and they have been changing their
development environment for new projects. So, there are some small
opportunities but only a maintenance of current old application when the
author isn't already interested in it.


And because my income is more and more from other areas (SQL, DBA, Unix,
Java).... You know, time to go.


Cheers,
Alfred
http://www.yqcomputer.com/




"Jan K. van Dalen" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM > wrote

I'm referring to the topic under discussion - Proc-Blaster

Glenn Rathke

"Alfred Blaho (Prague, CZ)" wrote:


Alfred,

I have never had potential customers have a problem with me choosing Clarion
to develop for them. I can demonstrate how I can provide the product faster and
better than other tools and I also demonstrate how I can make changes and
revisions very quickly. After an hour demonstration, they usually give me the
contract. They don't go to the Clarion website. They don't ask for a trial
version. They expect me to provide them with a solution for them. I also provide
them with references to 8 figure companies that I have provided Clarion
solutions for them. Just because SV doesn't provide marketing you think they
should, doesn't mean that you can't do your own marketing. I don't know about
you, but if you can't sell yourself as a provider of solutions, then no amount
of vendor marketing will help you. If there are many of us who can get Clarion
work without SV marketing, then the problem may not be with SV.


If that is the case, then there might be something with your sales pitch.


If they want Access, then there is no amount of advertising by SV that will
change that.


And I know about that I have been speaking of as I have been working with
Clarion since 1992 and I have had so much work that I have had to turn a lot
down. I still today have oppertunitues to get Clarion work, but I have no more
time. Before you say that I should give them up, it's not that simple. It's not
just the tool that makes good software development.


That might be true, but there are many companies who only want MS development
tools and no amount of marketing in the world will change that. I will continue
to sell myself and the tools I use to solve the problems that I need to solve
for my customers. Clarion the IDE allows me to solve those even when the
solution might not be Clarion the language.


Well, with your negative attitude, maybe you should go to greener pastures. With
all the negative comments I see coming from you, you won't make things any
better.

Ron

Alfred,

This is always a problem when you don't demonstrate it yourself. Let them
see it for themselves. Show them what you know, where you get your
resources, ask questions, etc. This is your responsibility, not anyone
else's.

--
Russ Eggen
www.radfusion.com




Jan,

my point is that I'm really tired when I have to always persuade potential
customers about development in Clarion. They look on SV website and tell me:
No, thanks! Their questions are e.g.
Why they have not a price list there?
Why the distributor's link doesn't function?
Where is a trial version for our testing?
Why there isn't a distributor in our country?
...
And the last but not least: "When Clarion is so superior why they haven't
trial or price list?" It's very suspicious.

Nobody is interested in Clarion when I speak about the excellent
possibilities and functionality, development speed or maintenance,
templates, or... irrespective of a test application I create quickly and
efficiently and free of charge for them. They say, it's nice but we need the
application for xyz application server (OAS) or we need integration with our
current Access solution, so you have to do it in Access, when you want the
project.

They need marketing and publicity and no a template for PDF or ASP
generation or something similar. And I know what I'm speaking about because
have been working with Clarion since '89 and have many years of "Clarion
missionary" experience (in Czech, Nederland, UK, Ireland, Germany...).

I feel sorry for dump policy there on Florida because it seems to me there
are still less and less opportunities for Clarion. I have been in touch with
some big players - Clarion customers and they have been changing their
development environment for new projects. So, there are some small
opportunities but only a maintenance of current old application when the
author isn't already interested in it.


And because my income is more and more from other areas (SQL, DBA, Unix,
Java).... You know, time to go.


Cheers,
Alfred
http://www.yqcomputer.com/




"Jan K. van Dalen" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM > wrote

Hi Ron,

On Sun, 03 Aug 2003 21:28:17 -0230, Ron Schofield



One thing that you need to consider also is the differences between
American and European markets. As someone who has developed on both
sides and tried to sell Clarion on both sides, Europeans are usually a
much tougher sale than Americans. Americans (both US and Canada) are
more spontaneous, where as the Europeans are more cautious. So while
you can walk out with a contract in your pocket after an hour long
demonstration, you could easily expect to spend 10 days demonstrating
it to a European company and they might still not be convinced. I
understand perfectly what Alfred is up against and it is far from the
easy task you make it sound like.

Best regards,

Arn Baldvinsson
Icetips Software
San Antonio, Texas, USA
www.icetips.com
XXXX@XXXXX.COM

Subscribe to information from Icetips.com:
http://www.yqcomputer.com/

Agree.



me:
the
our
because
with

i Russ,
Thanks for your reply. You're right, that's my problem and I always go this
way. But it works in small companies only or when they know nothing about
IT, or integration and consistent environment or when they have big trouble
or don't have resources.

When they already have an IT solution or IT department, invested big money
in IT, and are clever, they need a consistent and stable environment and are
interested what kind of solution I offer. The main question is what's the
language (and producer) I will use for the solution and that's the point.

When I tell C++ or ORA Designer everything is OK, but when I make a mention
of Clarion, the discussion starts. I'm able to persuade their managers and
programmers as well about me and the solution (I know it very well, believe
me) but then they look around and try to find something about the excellent
Clarion on the Web and their feeling is changed.


And that's out of my control.

Thanks,


"Russell B. Eggen" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM > wrote in
news:3f2dae3c$ XXXX@XXXXX.COM ...
me:
the
our
because
with

Arnon,

Knowing that, will any amount of money by SV change anything in the attitudes of
those companies?

Ron

"Alfred Blaho (Prague, CZ)" wrote:


If there are 5000+ IT suppliers in Prague, it may not be a Clarion marketing
problem, but a general business problem with an oversupply of IT companies. And
if those large companies are located near you, there is no amount of money that
will make any difference. Just as you make your business decisions, SV has to
make theirs. If they are increasing sales with the current marketing practices,
then maybe they are happy with the current situation.


All I see is your constant complaining in about every response that you post. We
know how you feel already. So enough with the complaints. Your contant
complaints are not going to change SV's mind.


And neither are you constant complaints.

Ron

Hi Ron,

On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 10:09:18 -0230, Ron Schofield



Money isn't everything. You can spend millions of dollars on
advertising but if it isn't followed up with whatever else is needed,
it's a sure way to throw away money. Spent wisely you can move
mountains. Spent unwisely and you run out before you buy the first
bulldozer<g>

1. Everybody now adays that are into development expect to be able to
read comprehensive information on the web. The SV website is a relic
by now from the Topspeed times. Some work has been put into it, but
not a lot.

2. Developers as well as most consumers expect to be able to see what
they get. Trial editions, evaluation versions, demos whatever. I
don't think I (and Sue) have bougth a single piece of software in the
past few years that I didn't first try with an evaluation copy -
except Clarion of course<g> On second thought I _may_ have done that
with my 29 dollar java applet that I use for the menus on my website,
but that's about it;)

3. People are used to buying online. SV doesn't have the prices on
their website, even if all their distributors around the world do.
Finding the local distributor is not easy from the SV website. Many
of the SV dealers offer online ordering of Clarion. For example
RadVenture in the Netherlands has online order forms where you can
order Clarion 5.5, Clarion 6.0, ClarioNet and Clarion/ASP, all online.
Some of the links to the SV distributors don't work, for example the
link to the distributor in Norway ( http://www.yqcomputer.com/ ). I don't
know who's fault it is, but when a potential customer in Norway finds
himself dead in the water, he is going to say some really strong words
in Norwegian and walk away<g>

None of this is really money consuming, but it would pay of very
handsomly in Clarion sales. It would also contribute a great deal to
persuade companies and individuals that SV/Clarion are to be takn
seriously. Would it work for Europan consumers? Most definitely.

There is nothing in these 3 points that everybody can't see. This is
no different than millions of businesses all over the world are doing.
I don't buy that it doesn't work for SV because of this or that, it
simply isn't true. When it comes to marketing everybody has the same
line to start with: "Well, this all sounds good, but it really
doesn't apply to me because [whatever]" Years go by and then the word
is: "Well, I thought my business was exceptional but I learned that
all the marketing strategies apply to me too" What works for IBM can
also work for me, maybe on a smaller scale, but the theories still
hold.

Best regards,

Arn Baldvinsson
Icetips Software
San Antonio, Texas, USA
www.icetips.com
XXXX@XXXXX.COM

Subscribe to information from Icetips.com:
http://www.yqcomputer.com/