OT:POW Mistreatment (was:Most un-informed preside nt in History?)

OT:POW Mistreatment (was:Most un-informed preside nt in History?)

Post by Michael Ba » Thu, 06 May 2004 06:31:32


Somebody I personally know just came back from Iraq. He said that he's
going AWOL before he returns. He's/was MP.

But now it seems like its civilian contractors doing that job and guess
what.
They are outside military jurisdiction and don't have to care about the
geneva convention.
But how can they give orders then to the military?
Seems like Rummy screwed up the military real good.
Weird world





of

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OT:POW Mistreatment (was:Most un-informed preside nt in History?)

Post by Adam Dorri » Sat, 08 May 2004 01:46:38

For the same reason that the Nazi's were denied the defense "I was only
following orders" at the trials in Nuremberg.

Servicefolk have a m *** obligation to refuse to obey unlawful orders,
regardless of their source. To suggest that they didn't know better
demeans those many who serve (and have served) with honor.



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OT:POW Mistreatment (was:Most un-informed preside nt in History?)

Post by Art Bahr » Sat, 08 May 2004 06:16:38

i Adam :)
Actually, it is beyond a moral obligation (remember morals are based
on a person's beliefs), all members of the military services are required
to respectfully refuse to follow and/or carry out any orders given by a
superior that are not lawful and legal. The question of whether or not a
person is superior to another is based on if they are in a position of
authority or their rank exceeds that of the order's recipient (this can
include issues of date of rank between 2 or more personnel of the same
rank) or has had authority delegated to them in accordance with all
applicable rules, regs and laws.

The Uniform Code of Military Justice, the Laws of the United States of
America, the laws of the state where the issuance of the order occurs, the
laws of the host country and any applicable reguluations of the current
military authority are used to decide if an order is lawful and legal.

Hence, as a SFC I cannot tell a SSG or below to get me a cup of
coffee. This violates the regs regarding personal servitude (sp). Nor can
I tell anyone under my command to violate the Geneva Convention, as this
would be a UCMJ violation. Note that this is a very hard subject to teach
to junior NCO's as we have to get them away from the concept of right and
wrong and to the concept of 'what do the rules, regs, UCMJ and the Laws of
the U.S. and the Laws of the Host Nation say is lawful and legal? Right
and Wrong is hard... what is 'right' to a person raised in the middle east
could be different than what a person raised in Maryland or Oregon think is
'right'.

A Protester interviewed on KGW (Portland NBC affliate) last night
commented the as long as no one was hurt, property destruction was ok...
this was his answer when asked if he condoned the fire bombing of a
StarBucks coffee shop on Division Street in Portland. His definition of
'right' definitely differs from mine! And I am willing to bet he would
change his definitioin of 'right' if someone were to decide to destroy
something of his??

Art "just thinkin' and ramblin' " Bahrs

=======================================================
Art Bahrs, CISSP Information Security The Regence Group
(503) 553-1425 FAX (503) 553-1453


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OT:POW Mistreatment (was:Most un-informed preside nt in History?)

Post by Michael Ba » Sat, 08 May 2004 21:16:38

eems like nobody knows who is in charge, does what, when why but the
taxpayer pays for it.

What are Rumpsfeld, Tenet and the other doing all day long?
Not their job, thats for sure.


Pentagon Memo Warned on Army Contractors
Fri May 7, 3:54 AM ET

By MATT KELLEY, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - A year before the Iraq invasion, the then-Army secretary
warned his Pentagon bosses that there was inadequate control of private
military contractors, which are now at the heart of controversies over
misspending and prisoner abuse.

The author of that memo, retired Army chief Thomas White, said in a
telephone interview with The Associated Press that the recent events show
the Pentagon has a long way to go to fix the problems he identified in
March 2002.

"Clearly, there was a lot of work that had to be done and still needs to be
done," White said Thursday.

In a sign of continued problems with the tracking of contracts, Pentagon
officials on Thursday acknowledged they have yet to identify which Army
entity manages the multimillion-dollar contract for interrogators like the
one accused in the Iraq prisoner abuse probe.

Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld also acknowledged his department
hasn't completed rules to govern the 20,000 or so private security guards
watching over U.S. officials, installations and private workers in Iraq.

No single Pentagon office tracks how many people Americans, Iraqis or
others are on the department's payroll in Iraq.

"You've got thousands of people running around on taxpayer dollars that the
Pentagon can't account for in any way," said Dan Guttman, a lawyer and
government contracting expert at Johns Hopkins University. "Contractors are
invisible, even at the highest level of the Pentagon."

The problem has been known at the Pentagon for years.

In a March 2002 memo, White complained to three Pentagon undersecretaries
that "credible information on contract labor does not exist internal to the
(Army) Department." The Army could not get rid of "unnecessary, costly or
unsuitable contracted work" without full details of all the contracts,
White wrote.

White's memo was first disclosed in April 2002 by the GovExec.com Web site,
a trade publication for federal employees. It was provided to AP this week
by the Center for Public Integrity, a nonprofit government watchdog group.

Spokesmen for Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and the Coalition
Provisional Authority did not return messages seeking comment Thursday.

The prison abuse controversy that erupted last week is not the first
example from the Iraq war of contracting problems.

Investigators from Congress' General Accounting Office and the Defense
Contract Audit Agency say lax oversight contributed to problems with
several contracts in Iraq with Halliburton Co. The government is
investigating allegations of kickbacks and inflated charges on several
contracts with Vice President Dick Cheney's former company.

Guttman said the Pentagon in the past decades has significantly cut its
contract management work force while increasing its number of contracts
with private companies.

The contract with CACI International Inc. is one example. An Army report on
alleged abuse at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad says a CACI
interrogator lied to investigators and ordered soldiers to abuse prisoners.

Pentagon officials said Thursday they have not determined which agency
oversees the contract, whic
 
 
 

OT:POW Mistreatment (was:Most un-informed preside nt in History?)

Post by Gates, Sco » Sat, 08 May 2004 23:16:39

Didn't Rome fall because they outsourced the Legions?

OH Well. I keep getting reminded that you get the form of government you
deserve.

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Baier [mailto: XXXX@XXXXX.COM ]
Sent: Friday, May 07, 2004 7:30 AM
To: XXXX@XXXXX.COM
Subject: Re: [HP3000-L] OT:POW Mistreatment (was:Most un-informed preside nt
in History?)


Seems like nobody knows who is in charge, does what, when why but the
taxpayer pays for it.

What are Rumpsfeld, Tenet and the other doing all day long?
Not their job, thats for sure.


Pentagon Memo Warned on Army Contractors
Fri May 7, 3:54 AM ET

By MATT KELLEY, Associated Press Writer

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