Converting IDE RAID 1 to SATA RAID 1

Converting IDE RAID 1 to SATA RAID 1

Post by » Thu, 08 Dec 2005 05:09:58


Hola,

I have a server with an on-board IDE RAID controller controlling two IDE
drives in a RAID 1 (mirror) configuration.

If I install a Promise TX2300 PCI-to-SATAII RAID controller and two SATAII
drives, can I build the new SATA RAID 1 array from the existing IDE array,
or at least populate one SATA drive?

Can I then remove the IDE array, disable the IDE controller, and boot
normally from the new SATA controller?

This process would be under some time constraints if I do it, so I need it
to go just that smoothly if I decide to do it.

Thanks!
 
 
 

Converting IDE RAID 1 to SATA RAID 1

Post by Arno Wagne » Thu, 08 Dec 2005 08:29:58


>> Hola,
>> I have a server with an on-board IDE RAID controller controlling two IDE >> drives in a RAID 1 (mirror) configuration.
>> If I install a Promise TX2300 PCI-to-SATAII RAID controller and two SATAII >> drives, can I build the new SATA RAID 1 array from the existing IDE array, >> or at least populate one SATA drive?

Very unlikely. What you can do is to use ordinary mirroring software to
copy the contenst of the array. The problem is that the two RAID
controllers very likely don't understand each other and cannot have
shared arrays.
>> Can I then remove the IDE array, disable the IDE controller, and boot >> normally from the new SATA controller?
>> This process would be under some time constraints if I do it, so I need it >> to go just that smoothly if I decide to do it.

Then you cannot do it. You will need to look for a different option.
You very likely will have to accept the downtime mirroring the array
with external software will bring with it. Hardware/controller RAID
vendors do not want to be compatible with each other. They benefit
from you having to buy new hardware and of course once you have
a controller from one vendor they do _not_ want you to be able to
migrate away.

Side note: Your idea would work if the original and target array
was any decent software RAID, since then the controllers do not
matter. For example with Linux Software-RAID you could add the
the two SATA drives and then do the rest while the Server is running,
i.e. kick one of the original disks, add one of the SATA disks, wait
for resync to complete, kick the second original disk and add the
second SATA disk. I have done things like this without trouble.

Side note 2: Have you asked yourself what you will do if your
mainboard fails? You might need the same mainboard for fast
access to your data. Same goes for an external RAID controller.
You might have to buy two to be reasonably safe.

Arno

 
 
 

Converting IDE RAID 1 to SATA RAID 1

Post by Folkert Ri » Thu, 08 Dec 2005 08:55:44


>>>> Hola, >> >>>> I have a server with an on-board IDE RAID controller controlling two IDE >>>> drives in a RAID 1 (mirror) configuration. >> >>>> If I install a Promise TX2300 PCI-to-SATAII RAID controller and two SATAII >>>> drives, can I build the new SATA RAID 1 array from the existing IDE array, >>>> or at least populate one SATA drive? >> >> Very unlikely. What you can do is to use ordinary mirroring software to >> copy the contenst of the array. The problem is that the two RAID >> controllers very likely don't understand each other and cannot have >> shared arrays. >> >>>> Can I then remove the IDE array, disable the IDE controller, and boot >>>> normally from the new SATA controller? >> >>>> This process would be under some time constraints if I do it, so I need it >>>> to go just that smoothly if I decide to do it. >> >> Then you cannot do it.

Nonsense. Ever heared of backups? Or just cloning?
>> You will need to look for a different option.
>> You very likely will have to accept the downtime mirroring the array >> with external software will bring with it.

Whatever that was meant to read.
>> Hardware/controller RAID >> vendors do not want to be compatible with each other. They benefit >> from you having to buy new hardware and of course once you have >> a controller from one vendor they do _not_ want you to be able to >> migrate away. >> >> Side note: Your idea would work if the original and target array >> was any decent software RAID, since then the controllers do not >> matter.

They never matter if you have backups. And since they aren't
software raid they behave like single drives and any decent
but simple cloning software or backup sofware should work.
>> For example with Linux Software-RAID you could add the two >> SATA drives and then do the rest while the Server is running, >> i.e. kick one of the original disks, add one of the SATA disks, wait >> for resync to complete, kick the second original disk and add the >> second SATA disk. I have done things like this without trouble. >> >> Side note 2: Have you asked yourself what you will do if your >> mainboard fails? You might need the same mainboard for fast >> access to your data. Same goes for an external RAID controller. >> You might have to buy two to be reasonably safe. >> >> Arno
 
 
 

Converting IDE RAID 1 to SATA RAID 1

Post by » Thu, 08 Dec 2005 22:13:07

How about this?

* Power off
* Remove one IDE drive from the array
* Connect one of the new SATA drives with an IDE adapter
* Power on
* Rebuild the array (populating the new SATA drive)
* Power off
* Install both SATA drives and the SATA RAID controller
* Power on
* In BIOS, disable the IDE RAID controller, save and reboot
* Populate the second SATA drive

Done?

My experience has been rebuilding an array takes a lot less time than using
software.

Am I wrong about any of this?

Thanks again!
 
 
 

Converting IDE RAID 1 to SATA RAID 1

Post by Folkert Ri » Fri, 09 Dec 2005 01:02:39


>> How about this? >> >> * Power off >> * Remove one IDE drive from the array >> * Connect one of the new SATA drives with an IDE adapter >> * Power on >> * Rebuild the array (populating the new SATA drive) >> * Power off >> * Install both SATA drives and the SATA RAID controller >> * Power on >> * In BIOS, disable the IDE RAID controller, save and reboot >> * Populate the second SATA drive >> >> Done?

Sure, but all data was transferred twice.
>> >> My experience has been rebuilding an array takes a lot less time than using >> software. >> >> Am I wrong about any of this?

Should not make much difference compared with a sector cloner or
with a physical image backup. And you do that only once, no rebuild.

Copying by filesystem usually has the big penalty.
>> >> Thanks again!
 
 
 

Converting IDE RAID 1 to SATA RAID 1

Post by » Fri, 09 Dec 2005 06:54:17

> Should not make much difference compared with a sector cloner or

Do you mean by letting the array do the rebuild, or software? My experience
has been that letting the array build the second drive takes FAR less time
than letting something like Ghost do it. Maybe it's just Ghost...dunno...

Do you have a favorite program that would change my mind? :)
 
 
 

Converting IDE RAID 1 to SATA RAID 1

Post by Arno Wagne » Fri, 09 Dec 2005 08:38:44


>> How about this?
>> * Power off >> * Remove one IDE drive from the array >> * Connect one of the new SATA drives with an IDE adapter >> * Power on >> * Rebuild the array (populating the new SATA drive) >> * Power off >> * Install both SATA drives and the SATA RAID controller

Unclear whether this works. Unlikely IMO. This will only work
if both controllers use compatible metadata for the array
description. It should work if both controllers operate
metadata-free, i.e. do not store anything on the disks
except the data. But usually a RAID controller stores a
descriptor of the array on each disk in some non-standardised
location and format.
>> * Power on >> * In BIOS, disable the IDE RAID controller, save and reboot >> * Populate the second SATA drive
>> Done?
>> My experience has been rebuilding an array takes a lot less time than using >> software.
>> Am I wrong about any of this?

Yes, I think so. See above.

Arno
 
 
 

Converting IDE RAID 1 to SATA RAID 1

Post by » Fri, 09 Dec 2005 22:13:24

> > How about this?

I do see your point. Wouldn't the newer SATA controller somehow see the new
disk and "adopt" it as its own (for the lack of a better way of describing
the process)? I converted two machines from single IDE to RAID 1 by simply
installing the original single drive into a new RAID 1 IDE array, building
the array with one new disk, then removing the original disk and installing
a second new disk, and then having the first disk build the second. It
worked perfectly, and took only a few hours.

Here are some details: The servers (I actually want to do this to two of
them) are Tyan Tiger 200T (S2505T) boards with Promise FastTrak100 RAID IDE
controllers. They've worked rock-solid flawlessly in RAID 1 configurations
for several years, and I want to continue to use them until I can upgrade
the boards, processors, power supplies, and memory, probably in a year or
two. I replace the drives (as preventative maintenance) each year. For
now, I want to move the IDE drives out of the inside of the cases and into
fan-ventilated I-Star BPU-230 SATA enclosures, so the drives can be replaced
when necessary without taking the cases apart . Since I'm over 500 miles
away from the servers, it's much easier for me to instruct someone to
replace a drive in a tray than inside a cage filled with cables, especially
when the case has to be pulled out and disassembled.

Anyway, the new controller will be a Promise TX2300 with a pair of Maxtor
7L250S0 Maxline III 16MB 250GB (5-year, enterprise-level) drives.

I'm not a fan of Ghost, which is the only "cloning" software I've used.
I've seen it take almost a day to run, and I don't have that kind of time to
wait for it. I've put new drives into RAID arrays and watched the array
take under two hours to copy to the new disk, so you can see why I'm a
little hesitant to use software.

Thanks for any additional insight, and/or any suggestions for software that
doesn't run like it's written by Microsoft or Symantec. LOL
 
 
 

Converting IDE RAID 1 to SATA RAID 1

Post by Folkert Ri » Fri, 09 Dec 2005 23:18:49


>>>> Should not make much difference compared with a sector cloner or >>>> with a physical image backup. And you do that only once, no rebuild. >>>> >>>> Copying by filesystem usually has the big penalty. >> >> Do you mean by letting the array do the rebuild, or software?

No rebuild at all. Just copying data to the new empty RAID drive.
>> My experience has been that letting the array build the second drive takes FAR less time

No rebuild necessary.
>> than letting something like Ghost do it. Maybe it's just Ghost...dunno...

Must be.
>> >> Do you have a favorite program that would change my mind? :)

The most simple drive cloner that you can find.
If a DOS one, set-up the disk cache program first.
 
 
 

Converting IDE RAID 1 to SATA RAID 1

Post by Arno Wagne » Fri, 09 Dec 2005 23:53:40

reviously "JonnyCab<< XXXX@XXXXX.COM >> wrote: >>>>> How about this? >>> >>>>> * Power off >>>>> * Remove one IDE drive from the array >>>>> * Connect one of the new SATA drives with an IDE adapter >>>>> * Power on >>>>> * Rebuild the array (populating the new SATA drive) >>>>> * Power off >>>>> * Install both SATA drives and the SATA RAID controller >>> >>> Unclear whether this works. Unlikely IMO. This will only work >>> if both controllers use compatible metadata for the array >>> description. It should work if both controllers operate >>> metadata-free, i.e. do not store anything on the disks >>> except the data. But usually a RAID controller stores a >>> descriptor of the array on each disk in some non-standardised >>> location and format.
>> I do see your point. Wouldn't the newer SATA controller somehow see the new >> disk and "adopt" it as its own (for the lack of a better way of describing >> the process)?

No. If it is connected to the IDE controller no other hardware has
any business messing with it. It likely cannot even see it without
sort of "hacking" the OS driver layer.
>> I converted two machines from single IDE to RAID 1 by simply >> installing the original single drive into a new RAID 1 IDE array, building >> the array with one new disk, then removing the original disk and installing >> a second new disk, and then having the first disk build the second. It >> worked perfectly, and took only a few hours.

Ok. So the old controller may not store a superblock on disk. Or your
disks are short one sector and you are lucky it was not allocated
(smart controllers store it at the end of the disk and some partition
tools dont use the last few MBs on disk). You might also have one
sector you better not write any data to.
>> Here are some details: The servers (I actually want to do this to two of >> them) are Tyan Tiger 200T (S2505T) boards with Promise FastTrak100 RAID IDE >> controllers. They've worked rock-solid flawlessly in RAID 1 configurations >> for several years, and I want to continue to use them until I can upgrade >> the boards, processors, power supplies, and memory, probably in a year or >> two. I replace the drives (as preventative maintenance) each year. For >> now, I want to move the IDE drives out of the inside of the cases and into >> fan-ventilated I-Star BPU-230 SATA enclosures, so the drives can be replaced >> when necessary without taking the cases apart . Since I'm over 500 miles >> away from the servers, it's much easier for me to instruct someone to >> replace a drive in a tray than inside a cage filled with cables, especially >> when the case has to be pulled out and disassembled.
>> Anyway, the new controller will be a Promise TX2300 with a pair of Maxtor >> 7L250S0 Maxline III 16MB 250GB (5-year, enterprise-level) drives.
>> I'm not a fan of Ghost, which is the only "cloning" software I've used. >> I've seen it take almost a day to run, and I don't have that kind of time to >> wait for it. I've put new drives into RAID arrays and watched the array >> take under two hours to copy to the new disk, so you can see why I'm a >> little hesitant to use software.
>> Thanks for any additional insight, and/or any suggestions for software that >> doesn't run like
 
 
 

Converting IDE RAID 1 to SATA RAID 1

Post by » Sat, 10 Dec 2005 00:49:28

> No rebuild at all. Just copying data to the new empty RAID drive.

Would the new drive be bootable then (from the SATA RAID controller), once I
disable the IDE controller?
 
 
 

Converting IDE RAID 1 to SATA RAID 1

Post by » Sat, 10 Dec 2005 01:10:03

gt; > I do see your point. Wouldn't the newer SATA controller somehow see the
new
describing

Hmmm...I meant to ask if the SATA controller would be able to "see" (and
boot from) the disk created by the IDE controller once it was removed from
the IDE controller and connected as a single drive to the SATA controller.
I was not going to enable both controllers at the same time.

building
installing

Well, it's worked fine for almost two years. I'd have to say I trust
Promise pretty well by now, so that sector may be protected by the
controller.

of
IDE
configurations
upgrade
or
into
replaced
miles
especially
Maxtor
time to
that

I want to use the SATA enclosures because of the 80mm, long-life fans, not
the cheesy 40mm sleeve-bearing fans that are always installed in the
individual enclosures. Those fans last for less than a year, they don't
warn of their failure, and they leave the drive alone to fry itself. I also
wanted to take advantage of SATA's slightly faster speeds and NCQ, without
having to spend more $$$ on updating the board/processor/memory. I have to
work withing a company budget right now.


 
 
 

Converting IDE RAID 1 to SATA RAID 1

Post by Folkert Ri » Sat, 10 Dec 2005 01:20:07

Arno Wagner" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM > wrote in message news: XXXX@XXXXX.COM

So that's obviously not what he meant.
>> >>>> I converted two machines from single IDE to RAID 1 by simply >>>> installing the original single drive into a new RAID 1 IDE array, building >>>> the array with one new disk, then removing the original disk and installing >>>> a second new disk, and then having the first disk build the second. It >>>> worked perfectly, and took only a few hours.

That's what he meant, obviously.
>> >> Ok.

Sofar for your "Unlikely" 'opinion'.
>> So the old controller may not store a superblock on disk.

Or doesn't care that the imported drive has one.
>> Or your disks are short one sector and you are lucky it was not allocated

Or maybe he just uses a capable controller.
>> (smart controllers store it at the end of the disk and some partition >> tools dont use the last few MBs on disk).

And a smart controller would check and protect that area.
>> You might also have one sector you better not write any data to.

As if a ('smart') Raid controller would allow that.
>> >>>> Here are some details: The servers (I actually want to do this to two of them) >>>> are Tyan Tiger 200T (S2505T) boards with Promise FastTrak100 RAID IDE >>>> controllers. They've worked rock-solid flawlessly in RAID 1 configurations >>>> for several years, and I want to continue to use them until I can upgrade >>>> the boards, processors, power supplies, and memory, probably in a year or >>>> two. I replace the drives (as preventative maintenance) each year.
>>>> For now, I want to move the IDE drives out of the inside of the cases and >>>> into fan-ventilated I-Star BPU-230 SATA enclosures, so the drives can >>>> be replaced when necessary without taking the cases apart . Since I'm over >>>> 500 miles away from the servers, it's much easier for me to instruct someone >>>> to replace a drive in a tray than inside a cage filled with cables, especially >>>> when the case has to be pulled out and disassembled.

What about your SATAs then?
>> >>>> Anyway, the new controller will be a Promise TX2300 with a pair of Maxtor >>>> 7L250S0 Maxline III 16MB 250GB (5-year, enterprise-level) drives. >> >>>> I'm not a fan of Ghost, which is the only "cloning" software I've used. >>>> I've seen it take almost a day to run, and I don't have that kind of time to >>>> wait for it. I've put new drives into RAID arrays and watched the array >>>> take under two hours to copy to the new disk, so you can see why I'm a >>>> little hesitant to use software. >> >>>> Thanks for any additional insight, and/or any suggestions for software >>>> that doesn't run like it's written by Microsoft or Symantec. LOL >> >> Depending on what your server does, you can make an image or backup >> while the server runs and recreate the installation on a separate system >> on the SATA disks and then swap them in. You need to have some sensible >> backup procedure anysways that lets you do something close. >> >> Probably the easiest approach for now is to stay with IDE and just move >> the disks into IDE enclosures that can be removed from the front.

Probably the easiest approach for now is to ignore you completely since
you obviously have even less ex
 
 
 

Converting IDE RAID 1 to SATA RAID 1

Post by Folkert Ri » Sat, 10 Dec 2005 01:22:00


>>>> No rebuild at all. Just copying data to the new empty RAID drive. >> >> Would the new drive be bootable then (from the SATA RAID controller), once I >> disable the IDE controller?

Should be, if a physical clone. Otherwise it wouldn't be a 'clone'.
 
 
 

Converting IDE RAID 1 to SATA RAID 1

Post by » Sat, 10 Dec 2005 01:31:16

Er, make that *within* a company budget. LOL