Eclipse, sick, dying, dead, or am I missing something??

Eclipse, sick, dying, dead, or am I missing something??

Post by James Kimb » Sun, 23 Jan 2005 12:30:14



I learned about Eclipse as an open source, fairly platform and language
neutral
development IDE about 8 months ago and was very intrigued.

Now I'm in a new job and was trying to introduce Eclipse as a tool that
we can
use. Unfortunately it now seems that there are no good GUI (Swing or
SWT)
development tools (one of the main reasons to use an IDE in my
opinion). What
gives? Is this thing going anywhere or should I just go back to the
ever buggy
NetBeans??
I hope I'm just missing some major plugin that everyone's using.
 
 
 

Eclipse, sick, dying, dead, or am I missing something??

Post by Aquila Deu » Sun, 23 Jan 2005 12:48:26


language

me too!

that

Wrong, IDE should track tasks and code dependency, do version control
and refactoring, and give you an overview of project by drawing
diagrams (UML).

You mean GUI designer? Why do you need it?

 
 
 

Eclipse, sick, dying, dead, or am I missing something??

Post by James Kimb » Sun, 23 Jan 2005 14:48:05

>Wrong, IDE should track tasks and code dependency, do version control

No, it's very simple to use external tools to do all those things and
generally
in a more effective way than those that are tied to and IDE. An IDE
just gives
you a single interface to all of them (though often not as good an
interface as
they offer individually).



Drag and drop GUI generation that works well in a reasonably
generalized
way (XML description) to allow rapid development is a function that is
uniquely useful in an IDE. You need it to be as productive as possible
in creating a GUI. Yes, it can be done manually but it's not as fast as
doing it graphically. You're designing a graphical thing (a GUI) it's
best done graphically. Even very
experienced GUI creaters (and I am) prefer to work in a gaphical Vs
manual
environment.
 
 
 

Eclipse, sick, dying, dead, or am I missing something??

Post by Aquila Deu » Sun, 23 Jan 2005 15:47:09


control

I think external command-line tools are fine, but not those GUI ones.
Just look at those diff apps - they can't even highlighten keywords and
parens when you view code, that's really a pain in ass (especially when
you're reading lisp).

is
possible
as

Not if you use Tcl/Tk and Python's Tkinter :)

Even if GUI designers are useful, most of them (including vs.net's) are
too lame. None of those which I have seen can let you preview the
possible look after resizing or color changing (on windows), or help
you to design custom widgets.
 
 
 

Eclipse, sick, dying, dead, or am I missing something??

Post by Tony Morri » Sun, 23 Jan 2005 16:18:42


I beg to differ.
I can create a GUI using a text editor, faster than, more robust than, more
maintainable than any "GUI builder" - even some of the best (i.e. not
Eclipse). This is not a special talent or anything - I know of others who
feel the same way, but one is inclined to question the experience that you
boldly claim to have given such remarks.


--
Tony Morris
http://www.yqcomputer.com/ ~dibblego/
 
 
 

Eclipse, sick, dying, dead, or am I missing something??

Post by j-marvi » Sun, 23 Jan 2005 17:01:08

 
 
 

Eclipse, sick, dying, dead, or am I missing something??

Post by Wald » Sun, 23 Jan 2005 17:44:13


Far from a reason for calling Eclipse a "sick, dying, dead" project :-)

Nevertheless, have a look at these:

http://www.yqcomputer.com/

= the official Eclipse Visual Editor project, which is working on just
what you describe. Try it out, AFAIK it is in a very usable state.

http://www.yqcomputer.com/

= a commercial plugin to build SwT GUI's. According to the comments, the
freeware version is not all that good, but that says nothing about the
full-fledged version of course.

Anyway, I'm not into the GUI builder stuff, so I can't tell you what is
going to work for you and what not. Just try it out, and see :-)

Regards
Wald

PS. If you can't find certain functionality in Eclipse, check out the
plugins archive at http://www.yqcomputer.com/ . You'll usually find
something useful there.
 
 
 

Eclipse, sick, dying, dead, or am I missing something??

Post by javakilo v » Sun, 23 Jan 2005 18:19:03

I used jigloo for about a week but I didn;t like it. I had trouble getting consistent results. Now I've been using the IBM Visual Editor plugin for two weeks and so far it has been quite nice.

--
Message posted via http://www.yqcomputer.com/
 
 
 

Eclipse, sick, dying, dead, or am I missing something??

Post by Tom Dyes » Mon, 24 Jan 2005 00:57:13

>> Yes, it can be done manually but it's not as fast as

Tony, it's really a matter of preference. I don't think preferring to use a
GUI designer makes you any less of a coder. I think it's a left brain/right
brain thing. One of the best GUI designers I have ever seen can only use a
visual designer. He is better than me hands down; his GUI's are beautiful in
form and function. To compare extremes, I would rather have a glass ***
than create a GIF without a designer, but I prefer my HTML work with an HTML
aware text editor. Alternatively, I know way back when that VB 3.0's visual
designer came out, it was vast improvement in form, function and
productivity over creating ASCII "windows" under DOS.

Personally, I'd like to know what the upper echelon of GUI designers for
Eclipse are. I'm afraid I'm going to have to delve into AWT/Swing before too
long.

Tom Dyess
OraclePower.com
 
 
 

Eclipse, sick, dying, dead, or am I missing something??

Post by James Kimb » Mon, 24 Jan 2005 01:54:25

> Far from a reason for calling Eclipse a "sick, dying, dead" project
:-)

Well, I really wasn't calling it that, I was hoping that it wasn't. I
think the
philosophy of it (platform and language independant) is great! I've
always used a text editor to write code and never made the transition
to an IDE because I saw no advantage to having to learn an IDE
for every language I use (which are many) especially since each and
every one has quirks.
Thanks for your comments though. Gives me a place to start.
 
 
 

Eclipse, sick, dying, dead, or am I missing something??

Post by James Kimb » Mon, 24 Jan 2005 02:06:59

>I beg to differ.
more
who
you

It really comes back to what you get comfortable with. I've seen guys
do an
incredible job with a text editor but I've seen it go the other way
too. I've
always used a text editor for GUI work but I simply do better when I
can
see where I'm going rather than having to carry it in my head as I
code. Maybe
it's a sign of age ;<). On the other hand you can take my vi away when
you
can pry it from my cold dead hands. It's really what you get used to.

I think my biggest point is that GUI design can be done by neophyte
programmers (or non-programmers) if a good tool exists. Otherwise it
must be
done by someone with a fair amount of coding expertise. Why waste the
talent of a programmer doing graphical design, human interaction stuff.
It's
really a different area of interest.

My primary reason for this post, however, was to test the waters of
those that
are using an IDE for Java development and see where they stand on
Eclipse.
I like the idea but it doesn't seem ready for prime time. I could be
convinced
I'm wrong though. I just haven't used it enough to know.
 
 
 

Eclipse, sick, dying, dead, or am I missing something??

Post by James Kimb » Mon, 24 Jan 2005 02:08:58

Thanks, I'll give it a try!
 
 
 

Eclipse, sick, dying, dead, or am I missing something??

Post by Chris Smit » Mon, 24 Jan 2005 03:03:35


You may or may not be, but I'm certainly convinced that you're wrong.
Eclipse is, from my experience at least, the most single widely used IDE
for Java development (that's even more certainly true if you include
WSAD, which is Eclipse + more plugins). To call Eclipse not ready for
prime time is basically a matter of sticking your head in the sand and
ignoring reality.

If you are part of the minority of Java software developers who care
about a visual GUI designer, then certainly check out the options as
others have suggested. However, you should realize you're in a
minority. At least 80% of Java is run on systems that don't have a
monitor attached. Of the remaining 20%, I'd guess more than half is
written by people who don't care for GUI designers anyway -- a
phenomenon that's very common in Java because the high-level layout
mechanisms free you from having to line up pixels by hand.

You probably created a lot of these incredulous reactions by implying
that the lack of a good visual GUI designer suggests that Eclipse is
sick or dying. That is so far removed from reality, frankly, that I am
guessing a lot of people assume you are merely trolling.

--
www.designacourse.com
The Easiest Way To Train Anyone... Anywhere.

Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
MindIQ Corporation
 
 
 

Eclipse, sick, dying, dead, or am I missing something??

Post by Steve Sobo » Mon, 24 Jan 2005 11:54:58


NetBeans and SunONE Studio (that's the commercial version of NetBeans, right? I
forget what the name is) do exceedingly good jobs of handling GUI-related
stuff. They're also bloated, resource-hogging applications, in my opinion. (Not
to mention that the last NetBeans version I tried crashed often.)

Eclipse does much better. I like Eclipse as an IDE for much the same reason
that I like IBM's SWT as a widget toolbox over Sun's Swing. I respect and
appreciate - and admire! - Sun's desire to maintain total platform
independence. On the other hand, real-world application performance is
extremely important to me, and some people don't run their apps on a PC with a
half-gigabyte of RAM. Hell, even the laptop that serves as my development
machine only has 256MB! :)


There IS a good visual GUI designer available for Eclipse. It may not be free,
but it's under $100, and it works well. I don't know how well the built-in GUI
designer works in the newer versions of Eclipse, but Jigloo rocks. Especially
3.0, which has removed the few objections I had to using earlier versions of
Jigloo. http://www.yqcomputer.com/

And I am not employed by them, just a satisfied user.

--
JustThe.net - Apple Valley, CA - http://www.yqcomputer.com/ (4638)
Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / XXXX@XXXXX.COM / PGP: 0xE3AE35ED

"In case anyone was wondering, that big glowing globe above the Victor
Valley is the sun." -Victorville _Daily Press_ on the unusually large
amount of rain the Southland has gotten this winter (January 12th, 2005)
 
 
 

Eclipse, sick, dying, dead, or am I missing something??

Post by Chris Smit » Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:10:11


I didn't mean to suggest that there is not such a thing. I really
wouldn't know. I only said that the lack of such a thing would be no
indication at all of Eclipse being sick, dying, or dead -- for the
simple reason that 90% of Java developers probably don't care.

--
www.designacourse.com
The Easiest Way To Train Anyone... Anywhere.

Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
MindIQ Corporation