Resume (buzzwords, links), Lisp jobs? (was: Resume questions, ...)

Resume (buzzwords, links), Lisp jobs? (was: Resume questions, ...)

Post by rem642 » Mon, 05 Sep 2005 09:41:37

gt; From: "Shiro Kawai" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >

But if you were trying to fill a job at your company, you'd never see
my interesting resume, because you'd be required to file your job
opening with HR, which would hire an outside agency to screen tens of
thousands of resumes down to just ten or twenty, and my resume wouldn't
have the right buzzwords so it'd never get from agency to HR much less
to you personally.

Ay, there's the rub! The agency wouldn't see any of those links, and if
the Sahara froze over and the agency passed my resume to HR it wouldn't
see links either, and you upon getting the printed resume from HR
wouldn't see them either. Should I list somewhere in the printed resume
where the online version with links is located (URL)? Should I put
square brackets around all the terms in the printed resume which
corresponding to HREFs in the online resume, so the person seeing the
printed resume would know whether the term he/she is interested in has
a link, hence whether it'd be worth the effort to look at the online

I'm also thinking that the printed and online resume should look
exactly the same, as much as is possible knowing that the prited resume
is in one format whereas the online resume looks slightly different
depending on which browser was used. This is so that somebody who has
already gotten the printed resume, and marked all the places where
he/she wants to see the extra info, can then go online and see almost
exactly the same layout on-screen and therefore have no trouble finding
those same links and clicking on them. Agree? So maybe what I should do
is make a HTML resume, and then use lynx's print command to make a text
file containing what is on-screen (whole page, not just 20-line window
thereof), and then that lynx-printed image would be the printed resume
I send to people offline. (And of course I wouldn't have to maintain
two separate resumes, just one HTML and then re-do the lynx-print any
time I need to make the printed resume match the online resume.)

The main problem with that idea is that when I'm not online and I want
to edit my resume, currently I just go to my Mac and open the resume
file and edit locally, but under the new method I would have no way to
view the resume I've edited locally except to upload to my unix shell
account and then run lynx to view just one screen of it at a time, then
lynx-print then download back to my Mac to see the whole of my resume
with what I had changed, royal hassle just to make a tiny change!!

What do you think of "playing dumb" on each customized resume, by
filling more than half the resume with just those particular things I
did specifically related to the current job ad, and condensing
everything else to an afterthought of no apparent significance? Or more
drastic: deleting *all* experience not closely related to the job,
flushing *all* my major accomplishments or anything else impressive,
because it's counter-productive when applying for any specific job in a
different area?

Nobody has offered me any such referrals since I got laid off from
Stanford. Previously, somebody I was working for at Stanford would hear
of another department that could use me as soon as the current project
was over, or the same department would tell me about a new project in
the same department that could overlap slightly with the tail end of my
current project. But when Stanford ran out of any money to hire me any

Resume (buzzwords, links), Lisp jobs? (was: Resume questions, ...)

Post by ramba » Mon, 05 Sep 2005 14:32:47

XXXX@XXXXX.COM (Robert Maas, see ) writes:

Take a serious look at yourself.
Then ask, "Would I hire myself ?"


Resume (buzzwords, links), Lisp jobs? (was: Resume questions, ...)

Post by Shiro Kawa » Mon, 05 Sep 2005 17:55:04

Folloup to: c.l.l., since it is slightly related to Lisp job market.)

Robert Maas, see wrote:

No. There's no such screening process. If I need people to work
for me, I directly contact them. Likewise, in all the Lisp job
I've ever got, I've never gone through such screening process.
There are other kind of screening process, though. See below.

I do that all the time. I also include urls to my
projects in case they want to check out.

I don't think that's important at all. But that's my personal opinion.

I don't understand. It sounds like very little effort compared
to the real job. And you should be able to automate the verification
process to a certain degree; it is a pure technical problem solvable
in your current resources.

Back in 1992 I was a student. Even after I became involved
in hiring process, I didn't read c.l.l. so often, and when I did,
I just checked out the subjects that interested me.
You have to post your stuff at the right moment and the right
thread when I (or some other people like me) am looking.

Sounds unreasonable? But there are two important lessons here.
I tell you them for the last time.

First. There are more Lisp jobs than you think, but not
enough for potential employers to check c.l.l all the time.
You have to show your presense at the right moment. How can
you do so? I guess posting your resume all the time to c.l.l
wouldn't help. Instead, whenever you come up a cool technical
solution or write up a cool piece of software, post it here and web.
Keep doing that. People may or may not find it interesting.
Once in a while, some people *may* be interested. But just once
or twice aren't enough; people don't rememeber that. If a
person is interested in the idea posted here, and click the
link, and find your name once again after five or six times,
then you've finally shown your presense. That is the *beginning*.
You can start building personal connections from there. And one
in hundreds of such connections will connect to a job.
(You don't need to 'socialize' yourself. If you keep producing
good outcome, eventually people come to know you).
I sometimes recommend or contact to people I never met in
real life, but I came to know them through open-source projects
and learned they have enough technical and problem solving skills
by the chunk of code they've written.

Second. You've finally got the right moment, and succeeded to
interest me in this thread, enough to post replies.
You have to use such a rare occasion effectively.
After reading your situation, I did think some subprojects I
could outsource. If you showed the technical skills the projects
required, I was ready to contact you. You didn't. Instead, you
showed lack of them. (Don't take me wrong; you may have skills
in some other fields.) This is the implicit screening process
in the real life. You didn't make it. Sorry.


Resume (buzzwords, links), Lisp jobs? (was: Resume questions, ...)

Post by rem642 » Wed, 07 Sep 2005 09:07:28

gt; From: "Shiro Kawai" < XXXX@XXXXX.COM >

Frankly I don't believe you. I've been available to work for you, with
14 years Lisp programming experience, since 1991, and more recently I
boosted that Lisp programming experience to appx. 16 years. That's
plenty to qualify for any job you can imagine, yet not once in all
these years did you contact me about working for you. Why not?

Now answer my original (implied) question: How do I get you to see my
resume or other qualifications when you need somebody to do Lisp
programming for you, and how do I get you to consider me for the job?
Sitting on my butt waiting for you to contact me obviously isn't the
answer. You don't ever advertise your jobs, so there's no way for me to
know when you are looking and make special contact with you at that
time. I've posted lots of times to this newsgroup, so if you *ever*
read this newsgroup you should be well aware that I've been available,
at least since I first got newsgroup access in 1992. Do I need to spam
you every day for years just in case one of those times you will
respond?? How else can I learn when you are looking so that I might
apply at that opportune time?

Expecting a person, reading a printed resume, to manually re-key one
URL to get the online version of the resume, and then just click on
various links to get the specific details, seems reasonable. Including
multiple URLs directly in the printed resume, and expecting the reader
to manually re-key each of them individually, seems not a good idea.
Showing the URLs from the online resume in the printed resume, as a
teaser to encourage the reader to manually key the one URL for the
overall online resume then go click on those other URLs instead of
re-keying them, seems plausable, although I wonder how many droid in HR
departments or agencies would be intelligent enough to figure out doing
that instead of manually re-keying all the separate URLs?

So you've basically agreed with my current idea/plan, of making a HTML
resume, which cites its own URL in visible form, and which has links to
the many detailed WebPages, then using the print form of that resume as
my FAXed resume, it seems, so I'm almost ready to move forward that

It's still about a half-hour to hour of manual work every time I change
the tiniest thing, even one word, in my resume. I have to connect to my
ISP and log in, which takes 3 minutes, then start up Kermit and tell it
to receive some file, then tell VersaTerm to upload a file using
Kermit, which takes about 2 minutes to set up and another 2 minutes to
run, then quit Kermit and arrange to convert MS-DOS format upload to
Unix format file, another 2 minutes, then navigate the Web browser to
that file and print, another 2 minutes, then use emacs to convert to
MS-DOS format, another 2 minutes, then set Kermit to download, and set
VersaTerm to receive, and wait for it to download, another 2 minutes,
log back out and wait for host to disconnect, then quit VersaTerm
because it can't be running at same time as FAX software. Let's say a
total of 16 minutes without any checking to see if I was even using the
correct version of the files. Add time for checking versions, for
checking if I got the format correct in the WebPage resume, for
renaming files to correct directories, for using FTP to upload WebPage
resume to Tripod, for checking if it works from Tripod, and I'm up to a
half hour if nothing went wrong. If o

Resume (buzzwords, links), Lisp jobs? (was: Resume questions, ...)

Post by Ulrich Hob » Wed, 07 Sep 2005 17:03:08

obert Maas, see wrote:

Why didn't girl XY give me a call? Why doesn't everybody use SBCL? Why
don't all computers run DOS? Maybe they found something they liked better?

Let me just remind you that sending spam is illegal in some states...
Not to mention that this could be seen as harassment.

If someone doesn't give you a call, That's Life.

Hm, what if that person chooses to spend their time on other things?
Seems reasonable to me.

It's like advertising. 98% of that end up useless, because nobody
changes their buying behavior. Most resumes end up in the circular file
under the desk. Again, life.


Not that I wasn't already laughing before this paragraph.

Robert, get a decent computer. Stop. Whining. Already. Oh, and while I
find some of your posts quite entertaining, others might not, so move it
somewhere else will you? (asking that much should be reasonable)

Do you see other people create ages-long threads about looking for jobs
here? I'm not sure it's appropriate.

Well, after having seen your page a couple of months ago, I wouldn't
consider visiting it again. But that's just me. There are lots of
other websites out there.

Oh, I'm sure we will remember you :D

I don't think it's a natural law. Also, at least you have people here
telling you to shut up about looking for jobs. That could be considered
personal connections, if you stretch the term a little.

Aw, that's too bad then.

That does ... what? No wonder nobody cares about your mysterious
utilities ;)

What subtasks?

Oh, if you don't spend all day here that's fine. I wouldn't mind.

Ah :D

I have one:
Take this off c.l.l :)

My ideal for the future is to develop a filesystem remote interface
(a la Plan 9) and then have it implemented across the Internet as
the standard rather than HTML. That would be ultimate cool.
Ken Thompson

Resume (buzzwords, links), Lisp jobs? (was: Resume questions, ...)

Post by ramba » Thu, 08 Sep 2005 08:23:05

XXXX@XXXXX.COM (Robert Maas, see ) writes:

Careful Shiro, this guy has been known to stalk people.

Resume (buzzwords, links), Lisp jobs? (was: Resume questions, ...)

Post by ramba » Thu, 08 Sep 2005 09:44:52

XXXX@XXXXX.COM (Robert Maas, see ) writes:

There are many solutions to this pseudo-problem.

1. Get a clue
2. Use Emacs with ange-ftp

You have eloquently demonstrated why no employer wants you.
You cannot deal with the friction of the real world.


Seek simplicity and mistrust it.
Alfred Whitehead

A witty saying proves nothing.